18 June 2007

Ecclesiology & Women Priests

My friend over at Priests & Paramedics tipped me off to a thoughtful article at pontifications on women priests. I’ve just read the article (pt I, at least) for the first time, but my initial responses, as I rehearse them, seem to be bound around one particular thought, which has less to do with the ordination of women, perhaps, and more to do with the Church:

It should come as given to any Catholic that anyone born into the tradition must accept that what is, as far as the Church is concerned, is what is. While we may be able to speak in ideological terms, if we hold to any expression of a visible Church, it seems we cannot allow ourselves to imagine that the Church is any more or less that what it actually is. Certainly, this was true across “the globe” up until 1054, or perhaps until the early 1500s. But what of now? After 1054, or after 1500, do we accede that the Roman Catholic Church is the “One, True Church”? (It is, after all, popular lingo within Roman Catholic circles.) I guess what I mean is, is only the Roman Catholic Church that which God has intended? Is she the sole keeper of orthodoxy? Although those are not the same question, I believe them to be related, and I find it very difficult to answer “yes” to either. Of course, this raises further questions. How do we find any semblance of an answer to these questions? True, they may not be “Catholic” questions, but that doesn’t do me much good, as I am not a Catholic. Five hundred years of “Protestant” thought has served to shape and mold the philosophical, epistemological, social, educational, etc., etc. context in which I entered life and grew up. And, of course, to say that I must abandon all my “Protestant” thought in order to become a “true Christian” (i.e., member of the One, True Church) seems tantamount to Muslims saying the only way I can really read the Qur’an is to have grown up speaking Arabic.

Let’s face it, though, the Church (and here, I am speaking of many denominations, including Roman Catholicism) has problems. To their credit, Catholics and Orthodox have retained an overall institutional structure (which is needed, in my opinion) that has survived with great integrity. I admire that. But I must also admit that I admire the missional fervor of the Southern Baptists. I admire the Scriptural saturation of many evangelicals. I admire the mystery of Eastern Orthodoxy, the liveliness of Pentecostalism, and the salt-of-the-earth nature of many Lutherans I’ve met. But all of these denominational expressions have severe problems, too. I doubt anyone seriously denies that.

A huge question, for me, then becomes: “how do we map ecclesial change—whether it’s appropriate or inappropriate?” Oh, what a muddled, muddled question. As a “good Anglican”, my default authority structure (inherited as it is) is Scripture, tradition, and reason. And now, finally, coming to the issue of women in the priesthood: you’re right…I’m still considering it. I may always be considering it. Currently, I’m willing to say that it may have been a reform that was long in coming, but was likely made the standard too quickly. I shudder at the rate of change in lots of Protestant denominations around such issues. It could be that it was instituted erroneously, as some would argue it shatters all three legs of my “authoritative stool”. But I have to land somewhere, and, for now, it’s here:

1. I don’t think it violates Scripture. Yes, there are troublesome verses to this stance, to be sure. But I don’t think, applying the same (or very similar) hermeneutical method, that one must consequently be in favor of the ordination of homosexuals (a common argument these days). In fact, if I were mounting a case for homosexual ordination, I don’t think I’d lobby for the same hermeneutical method.

2. Tradition is, admittedly, the toughest of the three for my case. Of course, it is an innovation introduced only in the last half-century. This is the one that most often “keeps me thinking” on this issue. But it should be noted that my cultural context again speaks loads into the way in which I process this information…and my ecclesial cultural context (as well as my ‘secular’ one) was one saturated with women in all sorts of roles formative to my development as a man of faith.

3. Not currently subscribing (totally, at least) to a Roman Catholic understanding of the priesthood, I believe that the ordination of women is actually more reasonable than their non-ordination. Although more discussion is here warranted, I defer to my explanations above for now.

Finally, I would address the two quotes in the article, responding in the way my brain often does, with follow-up questions:
I find Pope John Paul II’s quote interesting, because I still don’t understand the papal role. It seems that in order for him to speak thus, he must have authority over (and thus outside) the whole church. But evidently his authority is enough to make such declarations, but not enough to institute that level of reform. This is puzzling to me, not least because it again insinuates to me that there is no papal accountability to the church. I must be reading it wrong.
I find Fr Alexander Schmemann’s quote puzzling, unless either the “speaking for all Orthodoxy” is incorrect or that the word “dialogues” was only in reference to dialogues on the issue itself, as there continue significant Anglican/Orthodox dialogues into the present day (click here).

Thoughtful and helpful comments are, as always, welcome!

12 comments:

E. Twist said...

Pat,

There's a lot here to dialogue about so I'll just pull out a thing or two and go from there.

You said, "to say that I must abandon all my “Protestant” thought in order to become a “true Christian” (i.e., member of the One, True Church) seems tantamount to Muslims saying the only way I can really read the Qur’an is to have grown up speaking Arabic."

The Catholic Church never speaks in these terms. Your mark as a "true Christian" is not incumbent upon your being Roman Catholic. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit alone accomplishes this. But because the Church is visible (not some nebulous, creedal, anti-institution), being in communion with its visible structure (i.e. recognizing it's authoritative offices, those set-apart by the Holy Spirit for the sake of the Body) is essential.

I don't think Al Kimmel here was suggesting that "all of Protestant thought" is anathema. He was simply recognizing that Protestants don't tend to think ecclesiastically. Rather, we tend to focus on an understanding of the Spirit as always and everywhere un-institutionalized. So that when Christ promises that He will, "not leave us as orphans" he is speaking about the individual and not some formalized offices of the Church.

To think like a Catholic is to defer authority to the Spirit that resides in the offices of the Body. This is not to say that the Spirit does not interact with or work through individuals. It is simply to acknowledge that the visible Church is affirmed in the Spirit's investment in the visible offices.

That's good for now. I've got to get in the shower.

e.

Abu Daoud said...

>>And, of course, to say that I must abandon all my “Protestant” thought in order to become a “true Christian” (i.e., member of the One, True Church) seems tantamount to Muslims saying the only way I can really read the Qur’an is to have grown up speaking Arabic.

Which is why Bernard Lonergan (a Catholic and a Jesuit no less) says you should start where you are--good advice if you ask me. The idea is this: the best of Anglicanism, Baptist-ism, Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, and so on, lead to one place: Rome. That is the idea. (Your remark about language and the Quran brings many ideas to mind, but I will refrain for now...)

>>I admire the Scriptural saturation of many evangelicals. I admire the mystery of Eastern Orthodoxy, the liveliness of Pentecostalism, and the salt-of-the-earth nature of many Lutherans I’ve met.

Yes, but you can keep all of those honestly within Catholicism or Orthodoxy. You cannot keep them ALL within any of our nice Protestant sects.

>>Currently, I’m willing to say that it may have been a reform that was long in coming, but was likely made the standard too quickly.

Well, it's not default in Anglicanism. So your position is really quite fundamentalist from and Anglican point of view. It's irreversible if you think about it within the AC.

>>In fact, if I were mounting a case for homosexual ordination, I don’t think I’d lobby for the same hermeneutical method.

I would. what is your proposal for a hermeneutical method could you use? I think the more fundamental question is this: according to your understanding does ordination MEAN anything? Evangelical Anglicanism says NO, it really does not mean much at all because it's not a sacrament. The fundamental question is really what does the Bible say and teach about orders. If it doesn't mean anything then yes, women can be ordained. In the same way a woman can be married to a woman, since Holy Matrimony is really just holy matrimony--not a sacrament, just something we do in nice churches with fancy clothing. That is where evangelicalism leads.

>>and my ecclesial cultural context (as well as my ‘secular’ one) was one saturated with women in all sorts of roles formative to my development as a man of faith.

Nothing un-Catholic about that at all.

>>Not currently subscribing (totally, at least) to a Roman Catholic understanding of the priesthood, I believe that the ordination of women is actually more reasonable than their non-ordination.

How French! Reason is a wonderful idol :-) I say this in jest of course, but we always need to submit our individual reason to the reasoning of the whole community throughout time (ie, the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH).

Re the role of the pope, the IDEA is that he speaks FOR the whole church, not so much over or outside it. He articulates its mind. I think... I am not Catholic as you know. In case you were doubting.

Blessings brother.

Abu Daoud

E. Twist said...

Fellas,

I'd like to continue on the marriage/priest connection a bit more.

Since, for Paul, marriage is the image we are given of as the end goal of the Church's relationship with Christ -- and since the Priesthood is a living symbol of Christ's relationship to his Church -- we are forced to ask whether or not that relationship could ever be truly and appropriately symbolized by a woman.

In order for the marriage imagery to be appropriate there must exist a bride as well as a groom. A female priest creates a bride/bride scenario which misrepresents the relationship of Christ to the Church. This is why JPII declared that in matters of ordination of women to the priesthood "the Church has no authority" to allow such a practice.

In many ways it is unreasonable. :-)

Abu Daoud said...

Thanks Erik,

Yes, that is why when people ask me if "I support WO," I say, "I don't know how to answer that question because I don't think WO actually exists."

And here (this might tie in with your recent writing Erik) the question really is metaphysical or ontological. The ontology, or nature of being, of the male soul is not the same as that of the female soul. Ordination effects a true and prfound and permanent change in the nature of that soul. It is not something that can happen to a female soul, if I can use such, uh, medieval terminology.

Patrick Conley said...

Hey, guys,

First off, Erik was giving me undue crap about not "joining the conversation" on my own blog...but I feel no shame at all, seeing I've only missed checking for about the last 24 hours. (Unlike some, perhaps, I don't live to blog!)

Erik, I find it ironic that you tell me that baptism is the one mark of a "true Christian", then in the next sentence tell me that being in communion with the church's visible structure (by which I guess you to mean the RC church) is essential.

"and since the Priesthood is a living symbol of Christ's relationship to his Church"...and, let's not forget, vice versa...this is a huge one for me, and seems to turn the bride/bride argument on its head, and makes it, as I still hold, more reasonable.

Abu Daoud,
"The idea is this: the best of Anglicanism, Baptist-ism, Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, and so on, lead to one place: Rome." Hmmm...they all lead to a unified church, but I'm not convinced that such is absolutely Rome. (Especially as I've heard some folks say the deciding factor in Rome v. the EO church was whether we were Eastern or Western...surely the ideal is not such a divide.) As I told Erik earlier tonight, I think we'll be catholic...it's just whether it's pre- or post-consummated eschaton.

"what is your proposal for a hermeneutical method could you use?" I hesitate to recommend books I've not yet read, but check out Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals by William J. Webb. Categorically, women fill a variety of roles in Scriptural situations, including those of leadership. Not so with homosexuals.

In re: reason...I'd be equally uncomfortable with sectioning off reason to stand alone, but I don't think we need require it to be totally subsumed in tradition, either...elsewise, what would distinguish it from tradition?

Finally, I certainly do not think that, for ordination to mean anything, women cannot be priests. This seems to me to be a straw-man, generalist argument. Give me the details, here, please.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

Happily via media,

P

E. Twist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
E. Twist said...

Thanks Pat,

First off:

"Erik, I find it ironic that you tell me that baptism is the one mark of a "true Christian", then in the next sentence tell me that being in communion with the church's visible structure (by which I guess you to mean the RC church) is essential."

The only reason you have trouble with this is because you conflate one's identity as a Christian with the ethical obligations that necessarily proceed from that identity. Baptism is a sacrament of grace by which God reconstitutes the filial relationship between himself and the person baptized. The child's identity is changed from pagan to Christian in an instant. It is an act with complete finality.

This identity, much like my identity as a Twist, cannot be lost. I am a Twist whether I choose to live as one or not. Even if I deny my filial relationships I am powerless to destroy their reality.

The same is true for my Christian identity. It is not something contingent upon my acquiescence. Now, I may deny such an identity, just as I am free to deny my identity as a Twist. And as far as both denials are concerned there are consequences for sure. As regards my family there would be the loss of history and connection to my past as well as a lonelier future. As regards my relationship with God, my denial of His saving act of grace at my baptism would mean a loss of that salvation; a loss of eternal relationship with him in the eschaton. Yes, I am saying you can lose your salvation.

Therefore, being a "True Christian" is something God does. Being an obedient Christian is something we do. My point is that a necessary part of that obedience is submitting one's self to the visible Church. Now, I am not convinced this means RC. I am still working through that issue. But I am convinced that while Baptism is not deficient in marking out a person as a Christian, I do believe that it can never be separated from the call to Confirmation, partaking in the Eucharist, penitence, and all the other aspects of the journey of faith that in due course come to make up the mature Christian life.

Second,

"'and since the Priesthood is a living symbol of Christ's relationship to his Church'...and, let's not forget, vice versa...this is a huge one for me, and seems to turn the bride/bride argument on its head, and makes it, as I still hold, more reasonable."

I'll be honest, I didn't really follow you here. Please unpack.

e.

Abu Daoud said...

Good stuff here guys:

First of all, Pat, need I remind you of that great truth: "I blog, therefore I am"?

>>Abu Daoud,
"The idea is this: the best of Anglicanism, Baptist-ism, Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, and so on, lead to one place: Rome." Hmmm...they all lead to a unified church, but I'm not convinced that such is absolutely Rome.

That is the question: is it Rome or not? I am saying that the idea that is proposed is that the best aspects of those individual traditions in the end, if they are to preserve themselves, lead to Rome. If they do not lead to Rome (which somehow has this charism to not destroy itself, like us Protestants) then they defeat themselves. Lutheranism: Grace Alone! What is that in today;s Lutheranism, which has destroyed grace by disconnecting it from both the Bible and the community. You can do the same thing with any other tradition, including the sacred three-legged stool of via media Anglicanism.

>>(Especially as I've heard some folks say the deciding factor in Rome v. the EO church was whether we were Eastern or Western...surely the ideal is not such a divide.) As I told Erik earlier tonight, I think we'll be catholic...it's just whether it's pre- or post-consummated eschaton.

Actually not. There are Western Orthodox churches today that use Western liturgies and are in communion with Antioch and Jerusalem. They have monasteries in the US and the UK too.

There are plenty of Eastern Catholics too, entire churches: Chaldean Catholic (Iraq), Maronite (Lebanon), Melkite (Syria and others), Coptic Catholic (Egypt), Armenian Catholic (Armenia of course). These churches don't use the Latin rite at all. They have their own bishops and liturgies and languages and patriarchs...and the are not Western.

So you do, sooner or later, have to go with Rome of Orthodoxy. There are important differences.

FInally RE your claim "Finally, I certainly do not think that, for ordination to mean anything, women cannot be priests. This seems to me to be a straw-man, generalist argument. Give me the details, here, please."

I'm not sure that I have made this claim. I mean, in TEC priesthood means something, just like being a priest of Ball means something. It is title and prefers to certain people priviliges within a society that recognizes that office.

I am saying that there is more to this that true Holy Orders, sacrmental priesthood. It is not just about having rights and obligations within a part of society. It IS ontological, it IS NOT just phenomenal, pragmatic, anthropological, or cultural.

Peace.

Patrick Conley said...

Hey, guys! Thanks for your posts. I appreciate your thoughts!

Ok, Erik,

Yes, I unreservedly do conflate my Christian identity with the ethical obligations (fruits/obedience) thereof, ala John 14:15, 21, 23; Mt 3:8, 10; 7:17-20; etc., etc. Or rather, I would say that they are inextricably linked.

But for your point, I'm not sure I get your logic:
First, you say, "The same is true for my Christian identity. It is not something contingent upon my acquiescence." I'm assuming you're touting the "grace and election" card here. Fine. This is Calvinism-esque predestination at its finest. If it does not continge on my acquiescence, then there's nothing I can do or say that will prevent me from being part of the family of God.

But then you follow it up with "As regards my relationship with God, my denial of His saving act of grace at my baptism would mean a loss of that salvation; a loss of eternal relationship with him in the eschaton. Yes, I am saying you can lose your salvation." Hmmm...ok, to me, this runs exactly counter to what you have claimed. In order to make it work, I have to assume that I can still be part of the family of God (in an "elect" sense), but not enjoy the salvation thereof. Unless you are going to claim that every human being is "elect" in this sense (still changing the Calvinistic--and probably biblical--understanding of "elect"), I don't follow.

Second, I'm meaning to stress the vice versa aspect of the priesthood: that the priest represents the Church before God. Herein, isn't the priest essentially given over to what the RC church (not to mention Scripture) has deemed an essentially female (be it Mary, bride of Christ, etc.) identity? Ideally then, should priests be male when facing the congregation and female when facing the altar?

Abu Daoud,

Thanks for the clarification re: Western/Eastern. It'd be interesting--although a red herring--to pursue the Catholic/Orthodox thing further, as each (rightly, in my understanding) claims legitimate apostolic succession (which I'm still not bought into). What, then, is our evaluative criteria?

"I am saying that there is more to this that true Holy Orders, sacrmental priesthood. It is not just about having rights and obligations within a part of society. It IS ontological, it IS NOT just phenomenal, pragmatic, anthropological, or cultural." I am already persuaded down these lines. What I don't yet understand is why this necessarily means all priests have to be male.

Peace, brothers.

P

E. Twist said...

Pat,

"Yes, I unreservedly do conflate my Christian identity with the ethical obligations (fruits/obedience) thereof, ala John 14:15, 21, 23; Mt 3:8, 10; 7:17-20; etc., etc. Or rather, I would say that they are inextricably linked."

You've done it again! Essentially your claim here is that John and Matthew understand works as the cause of Christian identity, rather than the necessary effect. I would, rather, be inclined to understand the link between identity and ethics as having gradations of involvement. Otherwise it seems that you are forced to hold the line that Carter and Mason aren't "Truly Christian" until they begin living a life in response to God's gift of grace at baptism. Certainly as they grow into maturity there are ethical expectations placed upon them, but these expectations are born from grace, they do not conceive grace. I don't think that is Calvinist...

Gotta run. Finish these thoughts later this afternoon...

Abu Daoud said...

Quick note:

>>This is Calvinism-esque predestination at its finest. If it does not continge on my acquiescence, then there's nothing I can do or say that will prevent me from being part of the family of God.

He is not saying anything about election, but about sacramental grace. Baptism incorporates you into the church.

>>What, then, is our evaluative criteria?

Surely this (at least): that where the Catholic and Orthodox agree we MUST agree.

If you mean though how do we decide which side is correct, that is (I think) an historical question. Who was wrong in the schism? Constantinople I think. (Now that is a long discussion...)

>>"[The priesthood] is not just about having rights and obligations within a part of society. It IS ontological, it IS NOT just phenomenal, pragmatic, anthropological, or cultural." I am already persuaded down these lines. What I don't yet understand is why this necessarily means all priests have to be male.

There are many answers, but the short ansswer is that this is what the Bible clearly teaches. How do we know what the Bible teaches? When there are differences in opinion we find that the unanimous catholic and orthodox (and Catholic and Orthodox) interpretation is this: only men can be priests/elders.

We cannot be catholic and interpret the Bible in any other way.

E. Twist said...

Well, we pretty much cleared it all up over an awesome Pizza Hut Buffet. I guess we can get back to the whole WO thing.